Ok, can you summarise your role in our community of Calderdale whether that be professional or vocational?
“Well...I'm a cross between a village idiot and an active (male) member of the WI. Since breaking my back I have found myself in a situation where I haven't worked due to having to find my way back into the world. As a result, I've done a lot of volunteering and simple turning up at events. I do a stint at the Town Hall front desk on a Tuesday. This is two hours of greeting and explaining. As a result of this I bumped into Tom whom I know from working at the Food Bank in Todmorden when I was still walking. Tom has been involved in a research project researching people's experience of living in Calderdale under Covid. Tom got me involved in doing some of the research. What has followed on from conversations around that is that it has been suggested that a writing group I run on Wednesday's could do something with the research.
That's some of it.”
(Krishna broke his back in an accident in May 2018 and is now permanently in a wheelchair).
That is the best description ever! Knowing you, I'm not sure it's entirely accurate, but the first part really made me laugh. You're not a village idiot that’s for sure, but you are definitely a prominent character.
“I'm also part of the organising committee that runs a book group named the Todmorden Literary Society. We've been going for two years now despite only starting a month or two before the world became locked down for x amount of time.
Aside from that I talk to a lot of people when I am out and about in town. It keeps me in the midst of things so that I receive and share information about what's going on in the community simply as a side effect of being out and about.
Next question!”
OK...By definition, Diversity means “understanding that each individual is unique, and recognising our individual differences. These can be along the dimensions of race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, socio-economic status, age, physical abilities, religious beliefs, political beliefs, or other ideologies”. Inclusivity means “the practice or policy of including people who might otherwise be excluded or marginalised, such as those who have physical or mental disabilities and members of minority groups”
What does Inclusivity and Diversity mean in relation to your work, vocation or passion interest you do in Calderdale?
“I struggle with the idea of diversity. Most people are diverse by increments. It depends on how closely you look at a thing as to how big it seems; how separate the diversion is. Blah. Sorry. I get a bit caught up in what diversity really means. My writing group is a good example. It's mostly able-bodied white people of a certain age and yet they are at a point in their lives when they aren't being called on as much as they once were. So, they feel outsided by the world around them. They don't fall into the perceived pattern of what is considered diverse, but when you get close enough to them you discover a surprising range of stories at work.”
Most people are diverse by increments. It depends on how closely you look at a thing as to how big it seems, how separate the diversion is
I think that's a great point. I personally think so much gets lost in trying to box people into categories. I think this is the key to really talking to people.
“I often like including the people who inclusive people exclude. I was a friend of Christian Jackson when I lived in Tod. He was the local representative of the National Front. He felt marginalised for his beliefs, and I would listen to him because he didn't deserve that. It felt to me like he wouldn't throw me out of the country once he'd had to engage with me at a human level. If he stopped seeing me as part of a mass, he would have to engage with his own feelings. Thus, the very act of defining groups that need to be included is alienating and, therefore, can be counterproductive.”
If he stopped seeing me as part of a mass, he would have to engage with his own feelings. Thus, the very act of defining groups that need to be included is alienating and, therefore, can be counterproductive.
I know that feeling and that desire to include, even the people that have views that are maybe unacceptable to the majority. I think it's important to have everyone's views, to create common ground where we can and to have that as a goal, and to try and inform ourselves better by recognising our own bias and judgement, and just listening. We all have our diversity and our lack of inclusion. There must be evidence of difference to also recognise and decide on what’s ok and not ok as a community.
If I could reframe the question to make it more personal, what's the one thing that makes you feel most included in our community, and what makes you least included?
“I feel really upheld by the community when I'm made aware of just how inter-connective it is. For example, I fell out of my wheelchair the other day whilst trying to get into the Fox and Goose. You know what a disastrous spot that is how traffic speeds up and down there. A whole bunch of concerned people rushed out to help and those who weren't needed went back in rather than gawp. However, that isn't the good part. I was walking down the street (wheeling) when Dave Young, our local county councillor spotted me and told me he'd heard what had happened. He is in talks about getting that junction reorganised to have a wider pavement. It's been coming for a while and is part of a slate of changes to be made to that stretch of road between Halifax and Todmorden. What was really heartening was that he would be able to push the changes to the pavement outside the Fox & Goose up the timetable as there was, thanks to my incident, a palpable sense of jeopardy for human life....!
I feel less upheld by the community when I don't get out into it. That might sound ridiculous but there is always some glimmer of hope to be found in interacting beyond our bounds. When I give up I myself am not investing in an idea of myself. If that sounds a bit too good to be true I think I'm saying that It's in those strange moments when we forget ourselves and our needs that we forget others. When I see people walking around in a cloud, A boards on pavements, un-usefully placed, people in cafes causing me to have to ask them to move as they are stretched out but also inattentive…”
It's also good to hear that help is vital. I think so often part of trying to make things inclusive, is the opposite of helping. We shy away from asking if someone needs the support or actually finding out what is needed because we don't want to make people feel inadequate. Whereas if we came from a place where everyone needs a bit of love and support and assistance, we'd probably tackle all the inclusion issues there are, or at least see more often how it is complex.
Before we move on, in relation to what you said, and probably using the example of disability or 'complex ability' as I'm choosing to call it (because I compare everything to being dyslexia at the moment, and seeing it a vital way of seeing and engaging with the world that's maybe a bit more complex and challenging than the average person), so to what extent does inclusion need to be with the people (in the heart of the community), and be strategic too (like fundamental changes with pavements in your case)?
“We live in a town that holds a good example of how to proceed at this moment in this hemisphere. It is an active and busy place where the differential between strategic care from the council and care that swells up from the basic needs of a community is blurred. As I said above, because Dave Young and I both go to the same pub and he is on the council, he was able to use the example of my falling out of the chair as a spur to make the council hurry on those strategic changes. In a good community those interconnections are visible and traceable. In the extensive growth that we've seen in the last 300 years in how societies inter-relate we've lost sight of how those decisions that create excess and allow for growth come about. Whilst they are not all either good or bad, what's most important is that they are visible and as a society we can make decisions about how to proceed in light of what we know about the processes that have brought change into being.”
Ok, next question and a bit of a follow on from that. Maybe even that alone answers it actually, but just in case, what are the key problems we face in relation to meeting people’s differences, and including marginalised people, in Calderdale?
“I think that allowing some space to listen is the important thing. I do believe that Calderdale is an excellent example of a place where things happen due to the members of the community having a ready ear out for the needs of others. Politically, there seems to be a fight between the left and the right to prove the ineffectiveness of the other side. What would be helpful would be some form of non-governmental group that meets to talk about where things are going awry and organise to get these issues heard where it matters.”
I couldn't agree more. I'm hoping that's where we are going, so we can delve deeper into this at another time, so I can get your advice and opinion. I love how you are using writing as a way just to capture different people's lives locally. I think the fact we have an active arts community is also a huge benefit for having conversations in diverse ways.
How do you think this has changed or expanded since our recent Covid-19 crisis?
“Initially Covid caused people to freeze and panic. Then gradually we learned what we were able to give and how we could access what we needed. There were still many groups that didn't get reached but as the aftermath is being assessed and analysed, we are seeing what needs to be fixed. I think Brexit has also had a hand in creating a sense of panic in the world. The buses are up the creek, supermarkets are struggling to stock their shelves, bin collection and recycling are struggling to keep up with demand. In amongst this people just carry on. It feels like, as we reflect on the past two years, we are seeing skills and abilities that were invisible before the scale of crisis that Covid brought us up against.”
Initially Covid caused people to freeze and panic. Then gradually we learned what we were able to give and how we could access what we needed.
Yes, I agree. But what skills are these, are there people mapping them and to what impact does this have long term? Is it just the ability to deal with another crisis or the continuing crisis you point to with brexit and covid combined, or is it deeper than that even? Are those skills applicable to transforming communities and society?
“Who's mapping them? I really have no idea. There was a really great community space called the Hub in town where the person in charge, Eileen Kelly, was trying to draw together all of the possible resources available to those who needed them. It closed down due to lack of funding. She has since moved on to the health centre opposite the Town Hall. If I know Eileen at all she will still be doing the work of recording what resources there are and where they can be accessed but to get to that list you will have to be diagnosed with a condition that needs treating. So in a way there are those maps but to reach them one has to submit to a diagnosis and be found in need. I can't think of anywhere, other than people like you, where one can act on an internal instinct that says you need help and go and find it. This is what the Hub was very good at creating.
Have we simply learned to deal with a crisis? It's certainly a big motivator. A crisis creates a strong mental image of people who need help and therefore one's own sense of what one can achieve. However, I do believe that some of the pick up afterwards will involve discovering what can be kept going and how.”
I think this is happening. I think something really beautiful happened as a result of covid and I do believe some stuff is sticking around, that we are more resilient and aware and that's one huge step. The problem now is Brexit, energy changes and rising cost of living, so much more, and all the knock-on challenges of managing post-crisis that can stop us just naturally building on learning. To be fair it's all one big crisis now, so there has to be some responsibility somewhere, for someone, to really amplify where things are happening, to help with a positive feedback system.
Last question...What are your main ideas for impacting diversity and inclusivity in Calderdale in the future? This may or may not relate to your own work/vocation/passion. Other than maybe what we just discussed...you have already raised some excellent ideas.
“I feel like my just getting on with stuff quietly and regularly is a response to the new order of things. I'm helping get a lift installed at the Trades to increase access. I help run the writing group and the book group and this creates spaces where people come together and talk and do things. I work on the Town Hall front desk and find out information that I can then share or share information that I've found out elsewhere... If someone has a bigger formalised idea that they ask for help with I join in willingly. As I'm doing here or in my research work. It seems to me there are strands of this line of thought happening all over the place. Carry on I say...”
Absolutely. I really love that answer. The more that continues and is brought into fruition, the more the threads plait together. At least that’s what I see. It's not really about alignment or having the same vision. I think the vision is unclear, but I think it's about thickening the lines, making them more robust and just growing the plait at the moment. (Laughing) I think that’s an analogy there!!!
Thanks for your input, Krishna. I'd also like to just say how impressed I am by how you deal with things, your intellect and insight. It really is an inspiration, and I know it's not just me that thinks that. Thanks for your time again.
“Why fiddle de dee I'm blushing.”
Discussion Links:
National Front (wikipedia explaining the organisation - no webpage)
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